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  #21  
Old 06-14-2007, 09:03 PM
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People who play mmorpgs usually have personal goals, whether it is to do raid content, be part of a feared PvP team, socialize, or just casually play an hour or two a night in a low-key dungeon crawl.

When a guild does not enable a player to meet his goals, what choices does he have? It is especially difficult for those who personally like their guildmates, or have been with their guild for a long time, but are unable to achieve their gaming goals. This might be due to the level of skill or commitment of people in the guild, or the number of guildmates playing the game in question, etc.

Loyalty, then, is really an issue when you are in a guild that is not good for you. Should you stick it out in a guild that cannot meet your goals, because of a sense of loyalty? Why continue to be unsatisfied in something you are doing in your limited free time, in order to please people you may have little in common with, and will almost certainly never meet.

Certain types of player, particularly highly competitive PvP types, do not place a high importance on socializing and having online friends; their priority is winning. In these guilds, player skill counts for far more than friendship (or loyalty). In Guild Wars, at the end of every season, many people in top teams moved around, just like in sports.

If you were a raider, but after 6 months of trying your guild couldn't consistently make progress in raiding, would you stay in it, even if you liked the people in the guild?

If your guild were playing Age of Conan, but were consistently getting completely owned, relegated to the sidelines, unable to own a keep, and were generally a complete non-factor on the server political scene, would you stay in it, even if you liked the people in the guild?

Would you rather be on a winning team with people you may not especially care about or even like, or on a losing team with people you like playing with?
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2007, 12:30 PM
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Yes, loyalty IS a thing of the past. Now, everyone is using guilds/clans, it's a normal thing. They use guilds and clans to gain fame, power, levels. Once their done, and have no more use, they leave and join another. This i should say everyone knows what it is, its "clan hopping". To me, thats my opinion, clans are like a platform that can move up, or down.

People like me would pick the platform that moves up, or is ABLE to move up with time with your help too, and when its up, you jump to another platform that's higher, and you use it to get even higher. Thats the basic logic. But some, loyalty is first, basicly meaning you stick to the clan, the clan sticks to you. I mean, what is the use of sticking to the clan that goes higher, because one will eventually go down in time, or just stay there. So before it starts going down, you jump up to another. That is MY personal opinion, no hard feelings really, i hope i haven't offended those who disagree with me.

But those who disagree with me, I feel it isn't wrong, i mean, loyalty. As time goes by, the member's trust of you will rise, so will the leader's. Giving you a chance for a promotion in rank, and maybe even, a good chance you'll be famous when that clan becomes high ranking. But, that takes patience. As you know gamers nowadays just want to get high ranks, high levels, be the best, and boast about equips.

What im trying to say is, loyalty isn't what we gamers practice nowadays, well some do. Just dont rely too much on people, they may just disappear the next second and betray you.
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2007, 04:01 PM
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There is another reason for a lack of guild loyalty, and that is poor guild leadership. Many new-recruits to MMORPG's join the first guild that invites, unfortunately the first guild that invites them is rarely run or filled with mature, loyal members. When the person finally leaves their first guild(usually out of annoyance) they believe that this is the way all guilds are, and this is the way someone should act as a guild. Unfortunately as more people play these games this happens more often, theres really nothing we can do to stop it. What we can do is try to "rehabilitate" those who have improperly learned how to act in a guild, still, the majority of MMORPG players will never be loyal to their guild, we can only really hope to prevent the extinction of the loyal guild member.
Note: this is post is a reflection of MMORPG guilds, FPS clans often have a greater level of loyalty for many reasons that i don't feel like explaining.
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2007, 02:38 AM
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Yes and no. Yes because I see losses in guilds with average gamers. No because I don't see losses with dedicated gamers. I'm in the guild without losses.
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  #25  
Old 07-06-2007, 03:23 AM
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It seems it is hard to keep members. If the grass seems greener on the other side, they will go.

Best thing that we can do as leaders in the guilds we are in is to realize that out of 10 people we recruit, only 1 of them is probably going to be worth our time. It's our job to figure out which of these members are "it" and mold them.
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  #26  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:58 PM
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I've been having your exact problem, Roxianna. I had developed an amazing guild on SWG that held down city PvP on my server for months on end very effectively. We were also a small group, we just took our time to train every person in the tricks we knew and their individual profession. After that guild fell out and the remaining people left SWG we looked into WoW (which was a complete failure) and then Guild Wars.

The Alliance system really drew our attention, since we could found a small guild for those of us that came from SWG (all actual life friends) and then hopefully ally with like minded individuals to help avoid guild drama. Since we like to talk about things that are going on in our life the dual chat system (guild and alliance) really appealed to us. However it's been impossible to find a long term alliance that holds any sort of loyalty to the individual guilds that make it up.

So, I suppose our aim has been to take our very loyal guild and join a very loyal alliance which I thought would be easier then the standard WoW 'guild merger' that ends in no more then months with someone throwing a guild together quickly and trying to catch everyone before they disappear. I can say at least that doesn't happen with the alliance system.
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  #27  
Old 07-23-2007, 06:04 PM
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When I first started to see the shift in guild members loyalties was back durring my last year of playing EverCrack. That was when the kids were realy getting into playing.

I've found that the roleplayers, such as myself are more loyal, mature and for me more fun. I am much more selective now as to whom I invite in my guild.
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  #28  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:57 PM
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I have found that some guilds see "loyalty" as community and a place to be social, while other guilds see "loyalty" as being how many hours/runs you spend in goal-oriented activity.

Does anyone else see the dichotomy of the above? Putting emphasis on community without any goals frustrates the players who have the most fun being as competitive as possible. Putting pressure on guild members to perform a set number of instance runs, opposing PKs, or other quotas of goal attainment makes logging on a chore for people who just want to hang out.

I think you see guild members come and go because there are so many more people playing now. The greater the number of people, the greater the diversity in play style. It takes time for people to figure out what they want out of a game, especially as the player base gets younger. I think floating has become a given because of these things.

Complicate this with people who join a guild, find they are incompatible with its style, and then try to change it... Drama, anyone?
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  #29  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:08 PM
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hhmm...interesting posts. Approaching the issue from the other side, I'm a new, old gamer (grew up on a MUD in the 90s, stopped online gaming for years and returned this month with Guild Wars).

I certainly understand guild loyalty. Years ago, in my experience, you stuck with your guild for many reasons, unless there was a serious problem (either with you or the guild). I've heard that now its no big deal to guild-hop, but I can't bring myself to do it. I haven't joined a guild and plan to stay guild-less until I'm totally comfortable with not only a guild I'm interested in, but until I'm at least competent with the game I'm playing.

Years ago, I hung out with my guilds before I ever thought of joining (and before they would accept me). It was almost like an apprenticeship. We shared many adventures and developed friends and enemies. I learned what they had to offer in terms of in-game help, reputation, and in-game and RL companionship, and they learned what I had to offer the guild. So as time went on, it only became natural for me to join. By that time we were sure that, for the most part, what I wanted out of the guild matched what the guild offered to members.

However, I gather things are different now. Here's a couple possible reasons that I've come up with:

1. MMO games are truly "massive" now.

-Players have so many guild choices: As a new player, I'm lost in a sea of "Join my guild"/"starting new guild" ads. It used to be that there were few enough guilds that they could carve out a niche for themselves very easily (guilds based on in-game race/profession/class/play style/etc).

-It is much harder to learn about a guild: There used to be few enough players that it was likely you would have at least one run-in with someone from almost any guild and get an idea of the types of players that guild accepted as members.

2. Guilds have become a major part of most MMOs.

-Guilds have moved from a background/support feature to a prominent/necessary part of games. Guilds today are not what they were years ago. MMOs have changed how they treat guilds and guilds have grown into the new role that they play. It used to be that guilds played a support role in games. Guilds allowed you as a player to find companions to hunt or chat with. Guilds allowed you to have a sense of community in-game. Guilds helped role-playing, in the sense that guilds often had allies and enemies and added to the "flavor" of the game. But your decision to join or not join a guild did not affect the game-play. Now, guilds play a much larger role in MMOs. not only are many MMOs designed around grouping (which greatly increases players need/desire to join a guild), but guilds are acknowledged by games as part of the game. They can engage in guild v. guild battle, own cities and land, and be acknowledged (through rankings) for their accomplishments.

-Guilds have to be diverse to be competitive, making it harder to define themselves. It seems to me just from reading up on the subject that guilds can't just cater to one particular class/race/profession - at least if they want to stay competitive. Guilds have to be diverse, flexible and adaptive to both their and other guilds' strengths and weaknesses. I imagine this makes it much harder for a guild to stand out from the crowd.

-Guild competition attracts players who are more goal-oriented (or more players who are goal-oriented). Guilds have always been competitive to one degree or another. But in the earlier years of guilds, no one joined a guild because it would give them a chance to earn glory. No one joined a guild to achieve in-game rewards. A guild wasn't there to be used as a stepping-stone on the way to uberville. Now, players who are only interested in being the best or are only interested in grouping to better their own character, have just as much incentive to join a guild as those who want to help others or want to be active socially.

To use an analogy, guilds seem to have become big business, growing from the small mom and pop stores they used to be. Years ago, if you needed some help building something you'd go to the local hardware store, chat it up a bit with the owner (who was your neighbor) and lay out a few bucks for some simple tools. You might get some advice on how to fix some simple problem, but you weren't looking for anything more. If some outsider opened a hardware store across the street, you'd keep going to your neighbor's store out of a sense of loyalty and commitment.

However, now, when all the small hardware stores have been driven out of business and all you have left are giant chain stores, you go to Home Depot, where you can buy nearly any type of hardware product you could ever imagine (it wouldn't surprise me to find out they're going to start selling Star Trek style "replicators" next year), get professional (or nearly) level help with any project, rent vehicles and equipment and so on. But if a Lowe's hardware store opens next door, you have no qualms going there if they have lower prices or better service.

Although both then and now the ultimate goal was to get what you needed from the hardware store, the difference is that years ago you and your neighbors were the only ones shopping at the local store and all you needed was a screwdriver and some nails. Now, you're shopping at the same giant warehouse where builders and developers shop and you're not looking forward to the prospect of wandering up and down 36 isles just to find some caulk for the sink.

I'll stop. this post is way too long as it is.
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  #30  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde222 View Post
I have found that some guilds see "loyalty" as community and a place to be social, while other guilds see "loyalty" as being how many hours/runs you spend in goal-oriented activity.

Does anyone else see the dichotomy of the above? Putting emphasis on community without any goals frustrates the players who have the most fun being as competitive as possible. Putting pressure on guild members to perform a set number of instance runs, opposing PKs, or other quotas of goal attainment makes logging on a chore for people who just want to hang out.
Doh! How dare you boil down what I just took two rambling pages to post into two very concise, articulate paragraphs! ::shakes angry fist::

Um, yea, what Moonchilde said.
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