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  #61  
Old 09-06-2007, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taemojitsu View Post
out of respect for optimism, I won't comment
Please comment, I'm begging you. You should know doing something like that will only make people read what you want to say more...I feel like I made a decent point, if you object, shoot.
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  #62  
Old 09-06-2007, 04:11 AM
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Well, first off they've said that WoW is the end of the Warcraft series, they're not planning on doing anything after. But even if that wasn't so...

Killing Illidan for loots could never be a justifiable way of "cleaning up" the lore. Same with Kael'thas or Vashj or, rofl, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Every character whom the players can possibly kill for loots will be killed, with the lore justification weak at best. At lvl 80, who will bother killing Illidan? New servers, if there ever are any again, probably will never even see the BT, except maybe if a bored group of 10-15 lvl 80's want to explore the content. The Twin Blades of Azzinoth? Designed to be replacable from the start, that's why they're barely more dps than epics.

It's just not a good story. When you finished WC3 and TFT, did you expect that the last we'd see of Illidan or Kil'jaeden would be 25 members of Nihilum (a guild advertising their sponsors, steelseries and Multiplay, on the front of their website!) or Death and Taxes posing in front of their corpse? And to them, of course, it's not even about the story. Half of them probably never even played WC3, and couldn't give two hoots who Illidan was or why he was important. To them, he's just the final boss of WoW's most difficult raid instance... and of course, he drops epic loot.

Check out Hyjal sometime. Not the instanced version... the real one, the zone you can get into by walljumping near/in Darkwhisper Gorge in Winterspring. Explore the memories, the scars left on the land by the Scourge base camps, the mysterious Onyxia-style cave (if you're a mage you can actually blink inside and explore), the meadow leading to the jump into eternity, the huge and unexplained crater on your way to the world tree, the world tree itself on top of the well of eternity and the gigantic skeleton of Archimonde leaning against it. Then think back to the lorelol that the devs made the CoT version of Hyjal in TBC.

Lore is dead. Blizzard may try to sort of patch up the gaping holes left in it by their content-devouring raid playerbase, but you shouldn't expect it to be a very convincing design.


_________


Caveat: it might be different... might ... if the players at the top of the raiding curve, the ones to actually kill these great figures of lore, actually cared about what they were doing. Intent is, after all, pretty important in a story. But Blizzard's design, especially with TBC, emphasizes the value of items above all else. The only reason to play the game, according to them, is because you want better loot. And the only reward for playing the game is, you guessed it, better loot.

Did Jaina, Thrall, Malfurion, and Tyrande kill Archimonde because he dropped epic loots? o.0 Would it have been a very good story if that'd been why they did?
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Last edited by Taemojitsu : 09-06-2007 at 04:22 AM.
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  #63  
Old 09-06-2007, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taemojitsu View Post
Well, first off they've said that WoW is the end of the Warcraft series, they're not planning on doing anything after. But even if that wasn't so...

Killing Illidan for loots could never be a justifiable way of "cleaning up" the lore. Same with Kael'thas or Vashj or, rofl, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Every character whom the players can possibly kill for loots will be killed, with the lore justification weak at best. At lvl 80, who will bother killing Illidan? New servers, if there ever are any again, probably will never even see the BT, except maybe if a bored group of 10-15 lvl 80's want to explore the content. The Twin Blades of Azzinoth? Designed to be replacable from the start, that's why they're barely more dps than epics.

It's just not a good story. When you finished WC3 and TFT, did you expect that the last we'd see of Illidan or Kil'jaeden would be 25 members of Nihilum (a guild advertising their sponsors, steelseries and Multiplay, on the front of their website!) or Death and Taxes posing in front of their corpse? And to them, of course, it's not even about the story. Half of them probably never even played WC3, and couldn't give two hoots who Illidan was or why he was important. To them, he's just the final boss of WoW's most difficult raid instance... and of course, he drops epic loot.

Check out Hyjal sometime. Not the instanced version... the real one, the zone you can get into by walljumping near/in Darkwhisper Gorge in Winterspring. Explore the memories, the scars left on the land by the Scourge base camps, the mysterious Onyxia-style cave (if you're a mage you can actually blink inside and explore), the meadow leading to the jump into eternity, the huge and unexplained crater on your way to the world tree, the world tree itself on top of the well of eternity and the gigantic skeleton of Archimonde leaning against it. Then think back to the lorelol that the devs made the CoT version of Hyjal in TBC.

Lore is dead. Blizzard may try to sort of patch up the gaping holes left in it by their content-devouring raid playerbase, but you shouldn't expect it to be a very convincing design.


_________


Caveat: it might be different... might ... if the players at the top of the raiding curve, the ones to actually kill these great figures of lore, actually cared about what they were doing. Intent is, after all, pretty important in a story. But Blizzard's design, especially with TBC, emphasizes the value of items above all else. The only reason to play the game, according to them, is because you want better loot. And the only reward for playing the game is, you guessed it, better loot.

Did Jaina, Thrall, Malfurion, and Tyrande kill Archimonde because he dropped epic loots? o.0 Would it have been a very good story if that'd been why they did?
The thing is, I wasn't trying to justify it, I simply thought that was what they may be thinking, I don't agree with it at all if thats the case. I've played this game for a long time and I've seen a lot of things, theres nothing I've really missed out on in the present, or the past when it was all RTS. I've also never seen or heard anything about how WoW is the end of Warcraft for them, if you could direct me to this I'd like that, seeing as I'm a longtime fan of this series, I wouldn't want it to end like this.

As for this "Lorelol", while yes there were some retcons I think you let the forums get to you a little too much. There are retcons for everything but no one ever complains about them, personally the only change brought about with BC I didn't agree with was making Kael'Thas the savior of his people insane...that was horrible.
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  #64  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:15 AM
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Couldn't find it on bluetracker. All I found was this post on google:
http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/show...69#post1099127

Quote:
"Blizzard did officially state at one time about a year and a half ago that there would be no Warcraft IV. Of course, plans could change, but at this stage, I wouldn't bet on it."
I stopped looking tho when I found this:
http://blizzplanet.com/news/1625/

Hints that there may be a WC IV after all.

Other interesting links I found:
on lore and integrating it with world events, by Caydiem:
http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=318
http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/6816098.htm

Drunken ninja pandas:
http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-...en/1169542.htm


Oh, and retcons (like our very own demon space pallies in their magic spaceship) go hand-in-hand with current manglings of the lore, like killing Illidan or Archimonde (seriously, wtf) or, in the upcoming Sunwell Plateau, Kil'jaeden. Horde players would also probably have something to say about all the orc/troll heroes we're killing off. (Even Kael'thas... because, you know, he didn't seem power-hungry and traitorous when we followed him in TFT.)
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  #65  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taemojitsu View Post
Couldn't find it on bluetracker. All I found was this post on google:
http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/show...69#post1099127

I stopped looking tho when I found this:
http://blizzplanet.com/news/1625/

Hints that there may be a WC IV after all.

Other interesting links I found:
on lore and integrating it with world events, by Caydiem:
http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=318
http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/6816098.htm

Drunken ninja pandas:
http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-...en/1169542.htm


Oh, and retcons (like our very own demon space pallies in their magic spaceship) go hand-in-hand with current manglings of the lore, like killing Illidan or Archimonde (seriously, wtf) or, in the upcoming Sunwell Plateau, Kil'jaeden. Horde players would also probably have something to say about all the orc/troll heroes we're killing off. (Even Kael'thas... because, you know, he didn't seem power-hungry and traitorous when we followed him in TFT.)
I agree, there is still a very small chance of WC4 coming out... and yeah, Kael'thas wasn't like that, all he wants is to protect his people, being a blood mage and a leader and all.
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  #66  
Old 09-06-2007, 07:22 PM
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Thats just saying that there are no plans to make another RTS or maybe there are, that doesn't mean that the Warcraft series is defunct after WoW. They could branch off into other genres if they wanted, and while that would be cool I seriously doubt a game would come out that isn't an RTS or MMO from them, considering Starcraft Ghosts' spotty past and Warcraft Adventures.

You can keep on thinking that they're mangling the lore that they created before, but if you honestly think that you haven't been following the series as long as some others or you would know this is not the first time something like this has happened. Seriously I think a lot of people have forgotton about the many retcons and changes from before already and act like this is the first time it's ever happened how could they?! etc.

Orcs anyone?
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  #67  
Old 09-07-2007, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
but if you honestly think that you haven't been following the series as long as some others or you would know this is not the first time something like this has happened.
well, that's true. =p I only played WC2, and WC 3/TFT, and didn't really care about the lore in WC2.
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  #68  
Old 09-07-2007, 12:54 AM
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Well, I think I'll go over what went down for the sake of being on track here. From Warcraft I to II The Orcs were dipicted as a demon worshiping race of people who just wanted to slaughter, and it turned out they came from a "Portal" some people who like to counter argue against the Draenei's Tempest Keep like to refer to this as a "Stargate", fighting fire with fire only gets you burned in my book.

When we got to Warcraft III it seemed like a lot of stuff had changed. There was no more mention of heaven or hell or the underworld and the like, anything alluding to religious terms was gone. It turned out that demons were just other races that were corrupted or just...other races that looked like demons. There was just the world and that was it. The Orcs it turned out were not always these evil brutes who worshiped demons and kicked babies for fun but they were actually a somewhat peaceful Shamanistic race that was...you guessed it, corrupted.

It seems like it's a bad idea to be a generally peaceful race in Warcraft...you always get corrupted it seems.

As for Kalimdor and everything that came with it in Warcraft 3. All of that is safe as there really isn't anything to contradict any of it.

So there you go, I pretty much summed up a lot of the on goings.
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  #69  
Old 09-13-2007, 12:43 AM
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  #70  
Old 11-01-2007, 06:38 AM
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I like a majority of blizzard games and was addicted to SC/BW for a number of years. I loved playing the games but after ahile it bacame too easy with maps like BGH and Fastest map ever which is all anyone will play anymore unless you are on ladder and even then i'd be suprised if they don't try to rush you then.

Anyway Blizzard is a good company overall but when putting out their games they need to give a set date rather then push the expeced date back until suddenly the game appears on the shelf.

that is just my 2 cents
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