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  #11  
Old 10-03-2009, 09:53 PM
Hagan Hagan is offline
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Ah, thats largely down to the D&D Gods for each IP. Their are ways around that, but it depends on what version you are playing.

Personally, I like heavily flawed and ass-hat clerics. Like a holier than thou preacher whose an alchoholic (acceptable in most D&D religions), as well as Dark Clerics who have a thing for rescuing damsels in distress (Virgins in particular, who they then deflour and corrupt) so long as they get to perform acts of incredible evil whilst doing so.

Quirkiness in your characters thats the key to a successful RP experience.
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  #12  
Old 10-03-2009, 10:31 PM
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"every other RPG they can, but D&D they cant...bugs me to no end..."

Actually, they can. Unfortunately, nobody ever bothers to use anything but the example cleric.

The most popular character I have is a fighter/cleric of Guan-Di. He is a demon hunter who is a complete ass to deal with. He understands the demons and ghosts he hunts better than the living. He always has a plan, which may or may not involve sacrificing other people as decoys. And he always believes the ends will justify the means.

And despite his complete and utter ***holeness, he is still a very popular character among other players. Granted, he is a fairly 'custom' cleric, even though he falls perfectly into the 2e player's guides.

Since he is a cleric of Guan-Di (a god of war and defense, patron of demon hunters, ect), he could use any weapon and any armour commonly associated with demon hunters from his region. This includes the gim (double-edged long sword), dao (broad swords), and a custom weapon known as a demon snare. His holy symbol is an I-Ching mirror, which can trap demons and undead. This was the explanation as to why they turned when facing it, they would be trapped if they saw their reflection in the mirror.

He has no healing spells, wrong kind of cleric. I lost track of how many times somebody did something reckless expecting my cleric to be able to heal them. All of his spells are either offensive or specifically undead-related. His typical response to such requests are something along the lines of "Sorry, but if you want to wait until you die, I can resurrect you."

So, yeah... I think most of the 'problems' with clerics is the people playing them. If done with any kind of imagination, they are anything but boring (which is the most common complaint I hear).
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  #13  
Old 10-03-2009, 10:39 PM
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Evil + cleric is absurd, a cleric is atype of holyman or holywoman based on healing by faith, so 'dark cleric's just dont make sense, a Dark Sorcerer(ess) would be better suited imo

my whole beef started when a DM asked me to consider a cleric, i read up on them and found that they couldnt use low-end attack magic sutff, so then i began to look at mystic attackers in D&D, turns out only one healer: clerics

my idea of the beef is thus based off of:
a Mace-toting cleric is laughable at best, but a mace and low-end magics toting cleric is something to look out for and that also increase said cleric's survivability
same with mage-types who can heal, provides them with spells they could use to mend themselves and spell to rip up foes,

increasing survivability for both ways of looking at it

((you'll have to forgive my lack of mage-type class knowldege, i only remember a few, say wizard and sorcerer by heart, apologies, i'm obviously pretty bad with 'hard' memory))
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  #14  
Old 10-03-2009, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotU View Post
"every other RPG they can, but D&D they cant...bugs me to no end..."

Actually, they can. Unfortunately, nobody ever bothers to use anything but the example cleric.

The most popular character I have is a fighter/cleric of Guan-Di. He is a demon hunter who is a complete ass to deal with. He understands the demons and ghosts he hunts better than the living. He always has a plan, which may or may not involve sacrificing other people as decoys. And he always believes the ends will justify the means.

And despite his complete and utter ***holeness, he is still a very popular character among other players. Granted, he is a fairly 'custom' cleric, even though he falls perfectly into the 2e player's guides.

Since he is a cleric of Guan-Di (a god of war and defense, patron of demon hunters, ect), he could use any weapon and any armour commonly associated with demon hunters from his region. This includes the gim (double-edged long sword), dao (broad swords), and a custom weapon known as a demon snare. His holy symbol is an I-Ching mirror, which can trap demons and undead. This was the explanation as to why they turned when facing it, they would be trapped if they saw their reflection in the mirror.

He has no healing spells, wrong kind of cleric. I lost track of how many times somebody did something reckless expecting my cleric to be able to heal them. All of his spells are either offensive or specifically undead-related. His typical response to such requests are something along the lines of "Sorry, but if you want to wait until you die, I can resurrect you."

So, yeah... I think most of the 'problems' with clerics is the people playing them. If done with any kind of imagination, they are anything but boring (which is the most common complaint I hear).
well maybe but still, they dont poses enough ofensive spells, as above, you onyl ave him as a Undead/Ghost killer for his cleric side
try dropping a low-end-level t-bolt on a plate-mailed heay-armroed knight
your set up, form what you've expalined is not what can do that

by low-end offensive spell i mean things that work great on all things living or dead, not many skillsof such style exist in celric's arsenal, thus why i cant stand a healer how cant hurt a Massive (alive) hulk aiming to shred him, undead sure, but a livign kinght, not so much...
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  #15  
Old 10-03-2009, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwHeck View Post
Evil + cleric is absurd, a cleric is atype of holyman or holywoman based on healing by faith, so 'dark cleric's just dont make sense, a Dark Sorcerer(ess) would be better suited imo

my whole beef started when a DM asked me to consider a cleric, i read up on them and found that they couldnt use low-end attack magic sutff, so then i began to look at mystic attackers in D&D, turns out only one healer: clerics
I could not disagree enough. Evil clerics work quite well. All a cleric really is, is somebody dedicated to some deity or another. There are plenty of deities that are evil. They have plenty of worshipers, and they have their priests. That is, by definition, an evil cleric.

Yes, clerics are the only 'mystical healer' in D&D. That does not restrict them to healing only, though. My demon hunter cleric has a lot of offensive fire-power.

Quote:
my idea of the beef is thus based off of:
a Mace-toting cleric is laughable at best, but a mace and low-end magics toting cleric is something to look out for and that also increase said cleric's survivability
same with mage-types who can heal, provides them with spells they could use to mend themselves and spell to rip up foes,

increasing survivability for both ways of looking at it

((you'll have to forgive my lack of mage-type class knowldege, i only remember a few, say wizard and sorcerer by heart, apologies, i'm obviously pretty bad with 'hard' memory))
Please explain how a 'mace-toting cleric' is laughable? Not only was the mace a feared and effective weapon, historically, but clerics get heavy armour and spells on top of that.

That said, in my homemade world, I have 'blurred' the lines between cleric and mage. What your character would be considered would depend on what elements your character studies.
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  #16  
Old 10-03-2009, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AwwHeck View Post
well maybe but still, they dont poses enough ofensive spells, as above, you onyl ave him as a Undead/Ghost killer for his cleric side
try dropping a low-end-level t-bolt on a plate-mailed heay-armroed knight
your set up, form what you've expalined is not what can do that

by low-end offensive spell i mean things that work great on all things living or dead, not many skillsof such style exist in celric's arsenal, thus why i cant stand a healer how cant hurt a Massive (alive) hulk aiming to shred him, undead sure, but a livign kinght, not so much...
I do not need to throw a lightning bolt when I can roast your heavily armoured knight with fire spells that make lightning bolt feel like a 9-volt battery. Most of his spells are effective on living as well as undead. This is why I specified that his spells were all offensive or undead specific. After all, he worships Guan-Di, God of War. Clerics of Guan-Di are warrior priests.

When I get home, I will try to post his spell list. It is anything but 'weak'.
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  #17  
Old 10-04-2009, 12:52 AM
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what i mean by 'laughable' is while blunt force weapons can easily dent armor, and his heavy armor protects from missile-type attacks, thing is, blunt-force weapons arent oftenly ranged, so having a tunderbolt tat can hit mutiple times due to armor condcutivity or a fire-speel that rasies from below and both being able to strike from afar makes the mace-only one deemable 'laughable', so you now see my drift

and while fire is better at cooking inside a tin-can, the thunder-bolt comment was solely because of a side-story F-fic i came up with a while back where metal's weakness was elec, again, my accursed 'hard' memory lack-there-of

my overall point is that without multiclassing Clerics are left with amace or hammer and no rnaged attack making them perfect mage-food, despite magic resisting stats and with no healing spells, Mages are prefect for a well rounded archer to pop off in less than 2 shots(1 only if cirtical hit) if they have a high enough dex bonus

thats my point: magic of health and magic of war should be in one class, even if it's another class other than the cleric or mage, thats all 'm getting at...and while they should be on one unit, that same unit should specify in one or the other while toting a few low-level spells of the other kind
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Old 10-04-2009, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwHeck View Post
my overall point is that without multiclassing Clerics are left with amace or hammer and no rnaged attack making them perfect mage-food, despite magic resisting stats and with no healing spells, Mages are prefect for a well rounded archer to pop off in less than 2 shots(1 only if cirtical hit) if they have a high enough dex bonus

thats my point: magic of health and magic of war should be in one class, even if it's another class other than the cleric or mage, thats all 'm getting at...and while they should be on one unit, that same unit should specify in one or the other while toting a few low-level spells of the other kind
And my point is, still, that you are quite wrong about clerics having no offensive spells. Here is a list of offensive cleric spells the character I am talking about has.

Fire Trap - 1d4+level of caster damage. Granted, more of an aoe/trap than a targeted spell.

Flame Blade - creates a sword made from fire that does 1d4+4(+2) damage. The (+2) is the level of magical weapon it is considered for use against creatures that need magical weapons to hurt it, and stacks with the 1d4+4.

Produce Flame - A fairly weak fire attack that does 1d4+1 damage, but I often use it as a building block for other spells.

Pyrotechnics - Blinds any unprotected creature within 120 feet for 1d4+1 rounds. I often build this one off of Produce Flame.

Spike Stones - Okay, so this one is more of an aoe/trap. 1d4 per 'attack', 2 attacks per round on moving targets.

Fire Seeds - 2d8 + additional damage from anything the target is wearing that catches on fire from the spell in missile form. If used as more of a grenade, they do 1d8 damage.

Fire Storm - 2d8 + level of caster if caught inside the storm. If you are outside, but still too close, it is reduced to 2d8.

And those are just is directly offensive spells. If you want to include summons, he has:

Dust Devil - summons a minor air elemental (dust devil).

Animate Dead - calls the dead back to fight for you. (i.e. zombies skeletons, undead monsters, etc)

Various Animal Summoning spells - summon various animals, of course.

Conjure Animals - Similar to the above spells, but more powerful than some, weaker than others.

Conjure Fire Elemental - Pretty much what the spell sounds like. I like using this one when I have an excuse just because of how much fear a giant walking mass of fire can generate on enemies.

Conjure Earth Elemental - Again, basically what it sounds like. This guy has a little more raw power than the fire elemental, but he is also easier to down.

He has other spells that, while not strictly offensive in nature, can be used to generate damage if used properly. Spells like Wall of Thorns, Wall of Fire, and Earthquake. Then he has tons of buff/debuff spells, like bless/curse, aid, and the ability to both cure and cause blindness and disease. He has protection against elements, magic, poison, even the ability to completely remove people from the battle.

As you can see, a cleric is not stuck with 'just a mace' and no ranged attacks or defense.

As for Mages being perfect targets for archers; At low levels, yes they are. They are supposed to be, because at high levels, they are insanely hard to kill if played properly. It is supposed to be easier for fighters and clerics to survive the low levels than mages and, to some extent, thieves.

Now, even with all of that said, as I mentioned before, I do somewhat agree with you about blending the spells more. The 'blurring of the line' that I mentioned above was that, for my custom campaign world, I completely recreated the way magic worked.

As such, depending on what you wanted to focus on, two people studying from the same group of spells could end up with two completely different characters and groups of spells. If you want to concentrate on offensive spells, they are there. If you want to concentrate on defensive spells, they are there. If you want a blend of both, you can do that. Do not expect to be as powerful in either as people who specialize though.
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  #19  
Old 10-04-2009, 01:10 PM
Hagan Hagan is offline
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If I may?

The Cleric is based off the 'Holy Warrior Ideal' much like the Paladin, only attacking the idea from th either side. Paladins are Holy Knights, warriors who have some Cleric abilities to ward off and protect against evil powers/undead. The Cleric is the mace wielding knight, with holy powers to heal and raise the dead. But thats not the only way to play a Cleric, just the way that everyone THINKS they must be played.

A cleric is A) A Holy man of one Deity & B) A warrior of said Deity. A cleric is a pious man who has been given a gift of holy magic, who can take up arms against evil, no matter who or where it may be (Foreign or Domestic). In one case we have the crusader ideal, the holy man who goes out and finds someone to harrass, whilst the other stays at home and finds a local lord or cabal to kick the backside of.
Either way, feet and backsides are involved.

There is only one way to play a Paladin, badly. There isn't much latitude with a Paladin, straight laced and rigid. The only thing you can do with them is add some (Slight) personality quirks and hope your given the opportunity to develop a sense of humour.

The maces and blunt weapons where all symbolic for the most part, after all a cleric is supposed to use the gifts bestowed on him/her to smite evil.
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2012, 04:10 AM
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Favorite Class: Duskblade (PHB II)
Aside from running a Transmuter, I find it difficult to mix arcane magic with being on the front line along the fighter. The Duskblade melds those two aspects seemlessly.

Least Favorite Class: Truenamer (ToM)
Personally, I love the flavor behind this class, it's the way it functions that disappoints me. Unless you really find a way to just POUR skill ranks into the Truename skill that the class has, you have to be (roughly) twice the level of what you are fighting to even affect it with your "spells" (I forget what they are actually called).
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