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  #21  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zanarix View Post
Blah blah blah
What is this Human Rights Act you keep referencing? Oh, it's a UK law. Fortunately, we don't have anything that inane in the US (although we might in the next 4 years ). That's why nobody is suing Microsoft.

All this politically-correct, don't-hurt-my-feelings, I'm-so-sensitive, BS is ridiculous. People need to grow some thicker skin, realize that not everybody is nice, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. She didn't follow the TOS, ergo she got banned.
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  #22  
Old 02-27-2009, 06:46 AM
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I haven't heard one good argument towards the reason why she shouldn't have been banned. This is a lame thread. It's not freedom of speech when it's not a public service. It's a private service that houses its own rules.

Deal with real life. It's not all hippy like and socialist like most people under 21 want it to be.
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  #23  
Old 02-27-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Eikinskialdi View Post
Neither of our countries is really a shining endorsement of Democracy, we can vote, but only within a very broad structure where you as an inidividual can't change anything. Your system through legislation and ours through a very hide-bound traditionalist pile of nonsense.
While true, technically neither of our systems of governments are democracies. We are representative republics. Bit of a difference, because in a true democracy everybody votes on everything. We all have real jobs and don't have the time to vote on the ridiculous amount of issues that face nations of this size. That's why we vote for people who are supposed to represent our interests in a body of legislators. That's the way it should work, at any rate. It would be a great form of government, but the thing to remember about any "perfect" form of governing is that it is run by imperfect humans. Still, the ideal remains as something to strive for.

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Originally Posted by Sensational View Post
Which only exists where there's someone to enforce it, and even then it only exists to the degree that the enforcer is willing to enforce it. You talk about it as if it is some sort of universal law, really, it might aswell be forgotten tomorrow because ideals and morals can change overnight.

Our "rights" are inventions. This is partly why I believe that people should be allowed to discriminate as much as they want to, I don't feel that I, or anyone else, has the right to tell anyone who they can and can't offer their services to. If Joey hates a specific group of people, no matter what the reason might be, he shouldn't have to sell his cookies to that group of people. So, even though Microsoft didn't ban her because she is a lesbian, they might aswell have as far as I'm concerned. And that applies to blacks, whites, cripples, people who speak with a lisp, children under the age of 12, assholes, and alien conspirators.

I don't force you to buy my cookies, I don't even want to sell them to you, yet you wish to force me to sell them to you, despite of what I might think of you. That's not what "freedom" means to me.
While your argument is "true" from a standpoint of ideals, in the real world it don't float. Sure you have the freedom to deny services to groups of people but if you were to do so in today's cultural climate it's likely you would go out of business pretty damn quick. We live in a capitalist society here in the United States, where the dollar rules all. If enough people decide that they don't like how you run your business, they have the right to organize protests and boycotts and generally make your business life a living hell. You would be within your rights, they would be within theirs. And you would lose your livelihood.

People have the right to discriminate. I won't argue that they don't have the right. But their right to discriminate cannot interfere with the rights of others. If someone denies vital services, they are infringing on the rights of others. Not saying that LIVE is a vital service, by the way. At least for most people. If your "cookies" are the only thing that can keep someone alive and you refuse to sell to them because they're homosexual, black, "crippled" (a highly offensive term in my line of work) or what have you, you are in essence killing them. Infringing on their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Besides, my original point had more to do with other LIVE members' despicable treatment of this woman more than it had to do with Microsoft's completely legal, yet completely boneheaded (from a PR point of view) actions.

One more thing: I love to see all of this spirited debate, but it should be in the debate forum. Wasn't my intent to start a debate about human rights, merely a discussion about Microsoft and the actions of LIVE members toward another human being.
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  #24  
Old 02-27-2009, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilAerosolCan View Post
What is this Human Rights Act you keep referencing? Oh, it's a UK law. Fortunately, we don't have anything that inane in the US (although we might in the next 4 years ). That's why nobody is suing Microsoft.

All this politically-correct, don't-hurt-my-feelings, I'm-so-sensitive, BS is ridiculous. People need to grow some thicker skin, realize that not everybody is nice, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. She didn't follow the TOS, ergo she got banned.
The last part I agree with. Which means I can be as ruthless as I f**king want and take you to court over jack f-ing s**t! And why? CAUSE I GODDAMN CAN!

I swear to god, if all you Americans can do it. Why the hell can't I? (stupid NZ court system)...
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  #25  
Old 02-27-2009, 09:55 AM
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This thread should really be about why you should read your ToS and EULA's before agreeing to them.

One thing I do find amusing is tha tthe place on Xbox Live that says 'tell us about yourself' doesn't come with any sort of guidance. After all, its not like anyone cares if you have 6 cats, like long hot soapy baths, or your sexual preferences.

They want too know what genres you like, what role you prefer, and if your an idiot when given a flamethrower. Its what americans coined a 'No-brainer'.

She broke the rules she agreed too, she got banned, good!
Xbox Live users are shown as being small minded, petty pricks, good!
G-DNA users have differing oppinions on the matter, from misplaced outrage to indifference, good!

However, as has already been mentioned by Syldra, this is a NONE STORY.
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  #26  
Old 02-27-2009, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Disstress View Post
I haven't heard one good argument towards the reason why she shouldn't have been banned. This is a lame thread. It's not freedom of speech when it's not a public service. It's a private service that houses its own rules.

Deal with real life. It's not all hippy like and socialist like most people under 21 want it to be.
A: I don't think you can argue for her not to be banned you look at the EULA and ToS and you agree to therm. You break them its up to the company what happens, why argue over that for?

B: From where i come from (Australia) Freedom of Speech is allowed anywhere.

C: Last time i checked, we were meant to be tolerable towards diffrent cultures, skin colours AND sexual prefrences! In this 'modern' society we are meant to tolerate these things not go around harrassing them internet or real life, because well in real life we would get told off by the law but in the internet its all free (which is balony if you ask me, honestly real life = bad cyber life = good? bit stuffed up there.) So somehow no one can justify bieng an arrogant prick to a female gamer who has a same gender prefrence? I wonder why. This puts doubt in my mind about our society.
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  #27  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by zanarix View Post
And if it's not against the Human Rights Act. Yeah, I'm going to keep bringing that up until all of you learn it's power. It IS real and you want to know what enforces it? The LAW.
Define "real" for us. It's not some default law that has always applied, will always apply and should always apply, everywhere. Sure, some douchebags decided that they wanted to define right and wrong for everyone else before I was born, and to a certain point I am forced to live by those rules because the government would slap me on the wrists if I didn't. A government which I rarely ever agree with and where my vote still wouldn't change the fact that I have to live by their laws and morals.

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Originally Posted by zanarix View Post
If you went out and called me something that was completely racist I could sue you for it. I could take you to court for discrimination, which is a direct breach of Human Rights.
Well, here in Sweden you certainly could. In Zimbabwe? I doubt it. We even have a special law which says that you can't say something or act in a certain manner that would offend a "group of people". Funnily enough that law does not apply to "Swedes" as we're not considered a group of people in our own nation. So you can say "You fucking Swede" but you can't say "You fucking Iraqi". As long as the Supreme Court (Högsta Domstolen) decides that the "group of people" is actually considered a "group" you can be charged with this law.
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Last edited by Sensational : 02-27-2009 at 02:49 PM.
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  #28  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by zanarix View Post
We have the right to freedom of speech. We have the RIGHT to display our sexual preference anywhere.
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Originally Posted by zanarix View Post
If you went out and called me something that was completely racist I could sue you for it.
Ignoring for a second that your first quote is incorrect and you do not have the right to display sexual preference anywhere, and that you don't have freedom of speech within a private service; you contradict yourself with these two quotes.

You first think you have the right to say and display whatever you want where ever you want because it is your "RIGHT", you then say that if someone says something you don't like you can sue them because they broke your "RIGHTS".

I don't see the big deal, she broke Microsofts TOS and got banned. Live and learn, or stop buying Microsoft products if you want to protest.
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  #29  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sensational View Post
Define "real" for us.
lol

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  #30  
Old 02-27-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mykalgaidin View Post

While your argument is "true" from a standpoint of ideals, in the real world it don't float. Sure you have the freedom to deny services to groups of people but if you were to do so in today's cultural climate it's likely you would go out of business pretty damn quick. We live in a capitalist society here in the United States, where the dollar rules all. If enough people decide that they don't like how you run your business, they have the right to organize protests and boycotts and generally make your business life a living hell. You would be within your rights, they would be within theirs. And you would lose your livelihood.
Oh but that's what I'm arguing from, I certainly agree with you. I'm not a racist, I don't hate lesbians (I love them, especially the feminine ones, they make for great movies), I'm probably the least prejudiced person you can find. I'm not saying that you should keep your buisness closed to people that you don't like, there's way to many assholes in the world for that to be even remotely possible. Hell, even if you do dislike a certain group maybe you could just give them worse service and still charge the same amount, that way you can give them an evil smile and take their money at the same time.

But if you wanted to, that should be up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykalgaidin View Post
People have the right to discriminate. I won't argue that they don't have the right. But their right to discriminate cannot interfere with the rights of others.
And this I suppose, is where I disagree, from a moral standpoint. Since those rights are imposed upon me, I feel that mine should have priority. Basically, the only ones who should be forced to remain objective are government workers and the government itself. Since they're supposed to represent and serve everyone in the nation.

If the community doesn't want you there, and no one wants to sell you cookies, you shouldn't be living there. I'm not saying that you should be removed by force, simply by the fact that you couldn't live there without forcing yourself upon others who do not want to interact with you, that would happen naturally over time. It's easy to argue against that on a smaller scale I suppose, that black guy who worked on the cotton field couldn't exactly grab his bag and move back to Africa. My reply to that would be, tough shit, if a few people have to suffer so that everyone can have what I would call freedom then I'm all for it. And yes, I wouldn't want to be one of those people. But on a larger, more idealistic scale, it makes sense to me.
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Last edited by Sensational : 02-27-2009 at 08:06 PM.
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