Playing fairly vs. Playing to Win

[Pocketwolf]

Playing fairly and playing to win aren't mutually exclusive. In TF2 I have often observed the kind of completely imbalanced scenarios you mentioned. One of the tenets of our clan agreement (which all new recruits must accept and abide by even before being trialled by us) is that we play fair - we require all of our players to exhibit good sportsmanship. That means not team stacking, whether in numbers or in skill; being mature; and aiming to allow everyone to have a fun time whilst practising our skills.

Sometimes when I've had bad runs for hours (usually in pub games) it can be a huge psychological relief and morale boost to end up on a team that's doing really well (i.e. smashing the opposition), and it is always tempting to stay on that team because you know you can rely on your teammates and you know you will do well with their support. But I've been on the 'smashed' team often enough to know how crappy it can feel from the other side, so I usually swap over to help balance things out a bit.

Such a swap would be me 'playing fairly' and once on the losing team, my 'playing to win' focus actually becomes much, much tighter, because we're already on the back foot and there's an element of "we really have to fight for this". And it is vastly more satisfying to hop onto a losing team and, through a mixture of playing well myself, encouraging my team and supporting my teammates, start to see the tide turn and begin to win. So if anything, I find that the two work hand-in-hand more often than not.

[Chewie5150]

That's a great contribution, Pocketwolf. Thanks!
I'm going to discuss with our other leader about the possibility of adding a Clan Agreement.

Yeah... teamstacking is always a problem. If I see it, I warn teamstackers and then kick them if they don't switch back. But the real problem is those 3v2 or 2v1 scenarios which are considered "completely fair" because there's nothing anyone can do about it short of switching to spectator.

Anyway, I think the main thing is good sportsmanship, isn't it? And I firmly believe you can show good sportsmanship and still kick ass.

[Chewie5150]

One thing I wanted to ask those who play FPS, specifically HL2M... there is one server I know of that bans players for binding togglezoom to a key. They call it a "script". I think that's ridiculous, but they seem very serious about it. And they will spectate to make sure you're not using the togglezoom, just normal zoom.

In my point of view, it's part of the game... it's a command in the console. It's like turning off auto weapon switch. Isn't it?

What do you guys think? Should it be considered cheating?

[Pocketwolf]

Np fredarmando, glad it was useful. Good sportsmanship is indeed what it pretty much boils down to, and if your guys have it, you'll probably find that everything works out okay.

Regardless, a clan agreement (sometimes known as a pledge or a charter, is a very good idea whether you're running a guild or a clan, small or large. It helps to avoid the "but you never said we couldn't!" situations that sometimes arise; just like in any organisation, setting out what's okay and what's not avoids confusion later. Ideally, your members would all be smart and mature self-governing individuals with whom you never had a problem, but this isn't an ideal world.

Also, just a note about your OP... whilst I can understand why you do anonymous checkups on your members, it doesn't show a great deal of trust. I'd venture to say that (especially if you're still recruiting), focus on your recruitment methods to only select those you WILL be able to trust, as policing your members not only creates more work for you but also doesn't foster any kind of mutual support and encouragement.

All the best with your clan.

[Pocketwolf]

Originally Posted by fredarmando

One thing I wanted to ask those who play FPS, specifically HL2M... there is one server I know of that bans players for binding togglezoom to a key. They call it a "script". I think that's ridiculous, but they seem very serious about it. And they will spectate to make sure you're not using the togglezoom, just normal zoom.

In my point of view, it's part of the game... it's a command in the console. It's like turning off auto weapon switch. Isn't it?

What do you guys think? Should it be considered cheating?

I can't speak for other clans here, and I know ours may be somewhat unique in this respect, but we don't use scripts at all, legal or otherwise. It's actually part of our clan agreement that we play the game in a bare-bones manner; the way it was designed without any of the added perks. This probably, if I'm honest, hampers us in competitive play (as other clans have no such strictures and that means they can often do things faster than us), but the reason we do it like that is to encourage our members to learn to do things the hard way and see the appropriate rewards. Real life is full of shortcuts; hardly anyone takes the time to do things themselves, step by step, from the ground up.

But that's us.

As for your particular example, I don't consider it cheating. But it is just one server, and it is their server, and they have the right to enforce whatever rules they want on it, within reason. That rule, to me, is well within reason. If they don't want scripting on their server it's probably because they want to even the playing field - if everyone's using the bare-bones controls, nobody has an added advantage (consider that some new players, in particular, won't know about advanced controls or console commands) and gameplay can often be a bit more challenging and interesting.

If auto weapon switch is an option only accessible through the console, then it falls under the same category. If, on the other hand, it's something that it available through the options menu, then no, I'd consider it to be a different situation. The options menu is readily available to everyone, and new players can easily find it and change the given settings. The console relies on commands that are not implicit in the interface, and are thus 'advanced'.

Hope that makes sense?

[Chewie5150]

Thanks, Pocketwolf.

You're right about the "undercover" thing. I kinda felt that from the beginning. But we started openly recruiting everyone that wanted in and things started going haywire. Unfortunately, I did catch some members (ex-members, now) doing some bad stuff or just displaying some bad behavior while playing undercover, so I kinda started relying on this tool. But it's true... it doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in the clan.

I think stricter recruiting guidelines and a more selective process can fix a lot of those problems. However, we have two leaders and although we're both very good friends, we don't always agree on everything. LOL

Anyway, this has been a great discussion and I've gotten some very good suggestions from all of you. Thank you so much.

[Syldra]

Originally Posted by fredarmando

One thing I wanted to ask those who play FPS, specifically HL2M... there is one server I know of that bans players for binding togglezoom to a key. They call it a "script". I think that's ridiculous, but they seem very serious about it. And they will spectate to make sure you're not using the togglezoom, just normal zoom.

In my point of view, it's part of the game... it's a command in the console. It's like turning off auto weapon switch. Isn't it?

What do you guys think? Should it be considered cheating?

what exactly does togglezoom do?

although, imo, anything the devs put there is fair game.
if it wasn't, they'd have patched it out already, hmm?

[Chewie5150]

Originally Posted by Syldra

what exactly does togglezoom do?

Hi Syldra,

In HL2|DM the default key configuration has "z" as the zoom key. But you can't shoot while the "z" key is pressed. So you have to use zoom, find your mark, let go of the zoom key and shoot really fast. Binding a key to togglezoom allows you to shoot while in zoom mode.

[Pocketwolf]

Originally Posted by fredarmando

However, we have two leaders and although we're both very good friends, we don't always agree on everything. LOL

Haha, I know the feeling - my man and I lead our clan together, so there's relationship conflicts sometimes too!

[MRXBOXnVANBC]

Originally Posted by fredarmando

I wasn't really referring to cheating, although you guys bring up a good point. Let me give you a couple of examples to illustrate my question:

1) The other day I had the opportunity to observe one of my members playing HL2 : DM on our server. His team had 3 players and the other team had 2. That's fine... it happens with an odd number of players. However, his team was booby trapping the ammo and health spots and one of them was camping on top of the tower. So as soon as an opponent would spawn, they would either snipe him out or if he were able to escape and get to the weapons/ammo/health spot, he would blow up. That happened for a long time. In short... the team with 2 players had absolutely no chance. Each member would last for a few seconds before getting killed. And it wasn't for lack of trying. So someone said "you guys have 3 players, we h ave 2... do you also need to have a camper and booby trap the resources? That's when my member said "we're taking full advantage of this map, stop crying." Of course I was disappointed in him. And although no rules were being broken, the game was hardly fun for the 2 guys being slaughtered. And it became boring for the other team too... but they were earning server points.

2) I also witness another instance in which 3 advanced players were playing against 2 noobs. I don't need to mention that it was total carnage. When one noob decided to leave, none of the 3 players switched... then another guy would log into the server and find himself at 2v3 against three extremely good players. Again... they weren't really cheating. Just racking up points at the expense of other players. But how much fun would a game between NBA pros and Junior High players be?

So... at what point does "playing to win" get in the way of having fun? Obviously, the guys earning the points are getting something out of the time they put in playing. But at what cost? The noobs leave, the clan gets a bad reputation...
Anyway... I'd really like to know everyone's opinion on this.

And thanks for your replies, guys.

God bless the noobs . Who else will the Best pimp like NUBBIES ( A PERSON WHO PLAYS LIKE A NOOB , BUT KNOWS BETTER) ! Every game is like this and it is the fault of the game makers ! Make a training course , if your a tmkillen fool Demott they back to basic . Can you image doing the basic course over & over , just to be able to play a RANKED MATCH !!!!