So sad I am Laughing and crying

[Sensational]

Originally Posted by tekhedd

I'm still solidly dependent on oil myself. You don't really have a choice. When people post things like "if u dont like it u can walk looser", it's just a troll.

This is true, still, we can limit our consumption if we want to. But humanity as a whole has decided to rely on it, it was decided in the past and now we have to live with it. If you don't like the price, then that's your problem and you can't expect anyone else to adapt for you.

[Grimparrot]

Originally Posted by Talen

Whether you support ANWAR drilling or not, my concern is not with oil or where we get it, but rather our severe lack of infrastructure to move toward more efficient modes of public transportation.

We lack the ability to move masses of people in ways that would ease the cost of gas by cutting down on its consumption (whether we're talking oil, soy, ethanol, etc.). I applaud NYC's move to all hybrid taxi fleets by 2010. That will cut gas consumption dramatically, per day, per gallon.

One solution I've seen proposed, though never really supported is to use renewable energy resources to power the fuel conversion of alternatives, such as soy or ethanol. Even if it continues to cost more energy to produce those alternatives than we end up getting from the alternatives, using renewable resources would cut down dramatically on carbon emitting power plants.

Similarly, America needs standardization among its nuclear power plants. Lack of standardization makes it difficult to consider large scale nuclear alternatives as specialization and engineering costs become obstacles.

Great post. I agree in principle but not in specifics on some points.

Ethanol is not the answer. It is driving the price of food up worldwide and domestically. I support eliminating all federal subsidies for it immediately for this reason. One cannot consider it a true energy alternative if starvation comes with it. Not to mention most of the ethanol plants are converting to burn coal for production, making ethanol as bad carbon footprint wise as anything else, including gas.

I absolutely agree with standardizing US nuclear plants. This is not a real barrier, as it will be a natural result of the free market due to the fact that standardization benefits the supplier as much if not more than anyone else. The biggest barrier to nuclear is the hysterical anti-nuclear lobby which might finally be overwhelmed by the need for affordable, clean energy.

Clean cheap electricity is only a advantage if there are electric alternatives for transit, such as light rail and electric vehicles etc. After traveling in the UK recently, I dream of the day I can hop on a train and get about anywhere I need to go. It was so nice to have an alternative to driving everywhere.

[Kitsunekurai]

I recently moved out west (Utah, actually) from the NYC area. So, first off

Originally Posted by Talen

We lack the ability to move masses of people in ways that would ease the cost of gas by cutting down on its consumption (whether we're talking oil, soy, ethanol, etc.). I applaud NYC's move to all hybrid taxi fleets by 2010. That will cut gas consumption dramatically, per day, per gallon.

Originally Posted by Talen

…the NYC initiative to make all taxis hybrids did not go over well with the taxi companies, as they were to pay for this all themselves (I'm not sure if it's changed since, as I can’t remember all that went on, but I'm sure if they decided to make it paid for through taxes, there was an uproar over that as well). NYC also has the large majority (if not all) their public buses made as hybrids, just FYI. I do agree that their efforts are commendable and respectable, and I hope they keep it up, but I want it clear that every step is a fight (with the public and government) to make things a little cleaner, and perhaps cheaper in the long run.

People don’t often see how things will be changed for the long run, especially when it comes to money (and where the government is concerned, if there aren’t any noticeable profits or proof of change within the term being served). When the government steps into that mix (money, taxes, and the environment), things become even more of a problem. People want change, want things to be environmentally better, want to make huge steps in gas/oil/alternative sources, but are not willing to part with their own money to help do these things. Along with the public unwilling to aid financially, we get the environmentalists contradicting themselves. They yell and protest for “clean air” and alternative energy sources (and they are also in the bunch crying over high fuel prices), yet they protest and complain when we make these breakthroughs. They don’t like nuclear because of the waste and the potential devastation should there be a rare critical melt down. They don’t like us drilling for geothermal energy. They don’t like oil. They refuse for us to even dredge up the oil we have on US soil! Along with that, all the protests and environmental laws make building a new refinery, or even expanding one, incredibly expensive and difficult. It’s easy to say build more and everything will be okay, but the building is just and hard to do and the drilling.

I like to consider myself as an environmentally conscious individual; however, I can also see the bigger picture. Sometimes complete preservation of land and resources hurts us (and the environment) in the long run. The only way that we can not touch the environment in any sort of “destructive” way and still maintain a technologically advancing race is if we were to cut down on the human race in a whole. But again, that conflicts with environmentalist anti-government protesting rants (as well as, the highly religious people and those morally against mass murder – j/k…sort of).

I know this thread started out as a high-oil-prices-are-bad-and-the-work-of-“The Man,” but the thing is, until people can see past their own small problems, like paying $4/gal when they go fill up so they can go to work, and not have to sit next to the guy that smells like cheese and BO on public trans, oil prices will rise. And every time you get a raise because you could make it to work on time instead of getting trapped on the train because the tracks froze over and made you 2 hours late (happened to me), know that the oil companies are going to get a raise, too, because they helped you get yours.

[tekhedd]

Originally Posted by Talen

One solution I've seen proposed, though never really supported is to use renewable energy resources to power the fuel conversion of alternatives, such as soy or ethanol. Even if it continues to cost more energy to produce those alternatives than we end up getting from the alternatives, using renewable resources would cut down dramatically on carbon emitting power plants.

Not-so-minor nitpick here: ethanol has a significantly higher carbon load than gasoline.

[edit] I see Grim-P (Grimpy? Oh dear, no more abbreviations for me.) I mean, I see that Grimparrot has already touched on this point in detail. Oops. Oh well. [/edit]

I've had a few dozen discussions on energy-conservation and X-conservation-related topics in the past week or two, and have come to the conclusion that people, ultimately, are too selfish for it to make any difference what the solution is. Eat, drink, and be merry...

[revlazaro]

Not completely on topic but not off either, some of the comments in the last few posts reminded me of some things I read in a recent WIRED article. Figured I'd share:

http://www.wired.com/science/planete...heresies_intro

[Grimparrot]

I have to admit when I got my copy of Wired I read the same article and was reminded of this thread.

P.S. No worries Tekky my boy, I forgive ye for the unfortunate abbreviation of my name. When those fourteen scurvy dogs I hired swarm yer deck and pillage ye, dont take it personal like. arrrrrrrrrrr.

[*=SAS=* Gun]

heck ya it sucks man
i drive a ford f250 truck
gas guzzler
but i will pay that much just to have some fun and
get to work

but if we stoped buying from the big named gas companies they wil
be forced to lower the price but that is almost
impossible
so we will just go along and over spend for gas
but heck i hear in the uk they are paying 7 dollars a gallon
or somewhere near the uk