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  #1  
Old 03-24-2009, 04:58 PM
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alomo alomo is offline
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guild leaders how would you handle this?
little bit of background:

well, I am world of warcraft. been playing off and on since about 2005. not really been in many guilds. my guild history is roughly this: i was in the spirits within as my first guild. was in that for a while, then there was a rift with one of the main raid leaders and a bunch of people left and formed this small guild. we then merged with battle tribe. most of us then left battle tribe and formed this small guild called defiance. i took a year off, and defiance was no more.

fast forward to about 3/4 of the way into the burning crusade. i had a hunter and got into a nice small friendly guild. it is filled with some really good people. we were at the point where we could do guild runs of kara and do a sloppy job of za.

fast forward to a few weeks ago. i had gotten friendly with another guild, and started to get into their 25man naxx runs with another person in my guild. life was good, once a week, we would hit up naxx25 and tear it up. they usually only had about 5 pug slots, the rest were from their guild. it is a great run. then i get word from the other guy that they want to get ready for the expansion and want a full guild from now on. so, if me and the other guy want to keep on doing it, we will have to join them. (they said it a bit more nicely apparently.) i can totally understand where they are coming from.

so, we talk to a few people in our guild and let them know where we are coming from, every person we talked to could see where we were coming from, we wanted to see content, we were ready for it. we wanted to take out our 'main' toons, our raiders, if you will, and leave our other toons in the first guild.

fast forward to sunday. i talked to the guild leader about it, wow, was i in for a surprise. talk of stabbing in the back, disrespect, being distant, stealing guild people, etc, etc. this person is usually pretty easy going.

me and other guy would like to keep our other toons in there because we DO like the people in there, we just feel like our 'raiders' are stagnant in it. we also want to see some content.

we are supposed to get in a vent meeting on an upcoming weeking to make sure everybody is on the same page. we would rather not just turn our backs on them, but if it comes to it, I know i would.

So, for all you guild leaders out there, what do you think about having people take out their mains and leaving other toons? i do not see anything wrong with it. they, obviously, still like the guild. could there be a conflict of interest? doubt it. they have tried to keep everyones best interest in mind.

the last thing i want is drama, and that is what is going on. it is so thick you can cut it with a knife.
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Old 03-24-2009, 05:47 PM
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I have seen this 100 times... If u leave ur alts in the original guild, you will find that as ppl get these alts built up, they will slowly move to a more active guild with those alts...

Im PWI we try to do it the opposite of what ur talkin about. We ONLY keep mains in our faction and make ppl play their alts in squads, not within the faction. Now if they build up the alt enough and want them in the faction, we are more than happy to change out for the original main char, but each player only has 1 char in the faction.

You perdicament is a little more difficult. You are dealing with another guild and a different leader. Although it may be nice to run missions with them, they are not ur guild... different personalities, different ppl...

I have never found this to be successful for a long period of time. In most cases its best to simply become allianced with a guild for different missions, but moving yours into theirs will in most cases be bad for your guild.

All i can suggest is recruitment. Get more ppl in your guild that can run the missions you are trying to do... That is what we are having to do in PWI now. We have close to 45 members and are constantly recruiting to keep the in-game and online numbers up. Dont try and force ur ppl into another guild with ppl they havent had a chance to get to know first... It could cost you a guild.

Just my two cents....

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Old 03-24-2009, 08:16 PM
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Well, I'm a guild leader, and have seen this a million times in the 3 year life of our guild. There are a number of things going on here. (And, I'm a very frank person, so you know.)

First, don't beat around the bush. Your main is a "main" for a reason. If you take your "main" somewhere else, then you're no longer a real part of the guild. Stop trying to kid yourself, or anyone else. It's advantageous for you to keep players in both guilds, since it gives you access to both resources (people, gear, raid slots, etc.). For the guild, it does nothing. Friendship aside, you will either be non-existant, or a drain on resources for the guild you're leaving.

Cowboy up, and make your decision. Take into account some "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" factor too, because what you are about to do is leave a guild that you KNOW you work well with, for the unknown. It could go well, or bad.

From the new guild's point of view, it makes sense to do what they are doing. The choices they make partly depends on their attitudes toward certain things. In my guild, I would rather fill any raid slot with even an undergeared, mildly incompetent guildie, than PUG it out. If we neeeded to PUG some spots for one raid team, once we can fill them with guildies the PUG people are gone, even if they are "friends of the guild" type people. While some people do intentionally use that as a ploy to force the issue of you joining, I don't. However, if you do join, then you are a guildie, and get spots just like all the rest do.

It doesn't seem like your GM handled it very well, but from my own past experience, it's VERY DISSAPOINTING to see people do what you are doing. The guild has spent considerable resources, both physically and psychologically, in building up their friendship with you and your character's capabilities. Instead of reinvesting in the guild, and its success, by trying to help the guild itself progress, you jump ship and take what I would call the "easy route". That gets frustrating as a leader, especially when the leaders invest so much to help the guild progress, themselves. This partly comes from the types of personalities of people. By nature, [good] guild leaders are people that enjoy the challenge of bettering the world. They start a guild, get people in it, assign duties, work hard, and try to foster and provide an atmosphere for success. Guild members [non-leaders] are the opposite. They join, and do their tasks, but are merely working inside the framework of goals set up by the leaders. (And thus aggresive members that work to change that framework themselves become leaders.) So leaders look at your situation differently, from the perspective of "I've put all this work into you, if there is something you don't like, why don't you work to change it, like I do, and we'll both be better off?"

Personally, the second I see any guild member of mine (and I have about 400) start running raids with another guild, I pretty much know it's the end. On a few occasions, they figure out it's not for them, and stay. But mostly, they find that they can "follow" just as easily in the other guild, as they can in mine. And all they see is the rewards they're getting from running raids, and the other guild that is giving them these rewards. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy because of the raid lockout timers. Once you start running with another guild, you are forced to continue running with them because you get on their lockouts. You then become more distant from your guild, because you aren't running with them. In a small guild, like yours, that may be having trouble filling slots for a raid, you then screw them over too, since you get locked out of running with your guild, and they need you.

So, in my opinion, (as a guild leader, for the reasons I just explained), if you really want to man up, stay with your guild. Help them get better. Run with them, and help them PUG in people. Make something great, together. But if you want to take the easy way out, at least own up to yourself and realize that you're casting off everything your old guild did for you. Say goodbye, leave like a gentleman, and go to the new guild. Just realize that you traded old friendships for an easy chance to get ahead.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:56 AM
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Well, I think they are inadvertently pushing me to the 'seeya' mode. the GL has only sporadically logged in. I tried a few times to chat with them and got no response and sent an ingame mail to them. Instead of being on good terms, sadly, it seems as though they are pushing my hand. I know a few people are trying to act as a mediator.

(by the way, there is a tad bit of hypocrisy involved in this too. there is one person who left to join another guild and has a few alts in this one, just about all of them have officer status, granted he joined an offtime guild because of his current location. we have another person who left and has at least one toon who he is leveling up as well. and, lastly, a third person who is friends with another person has his main in another guild and has two toons in this one.)
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:57 PM
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I understand, but the jist of my post is the same...
- Realistically, you won't actually play in two guilds. So pick one and go.
- The reason you pissed them off is that they put a bunch of work into you, and are not getting any return out of you for it. They probably overreacted with their response, but their feelings aren't unjutsified.

Looking at your gamer psychology profile on here, it says that you're reward driven, and highly competitive. There are certainly exceptions, but usually people like you aren't the type that stay long in guilds whose method of operation is "We're underdogs, but if we all work hard together, we can accomplish a lot on our own". That's the attitude of many smaller guilds. Feel free to correct me if I'm off base, but I suspect that your motivation is "Ph4t L00tz", and you get little satisfaction from seeing the guild surmount minor milestones. And that's fine, the game has places for all types, but there may be better guilds for you, more suited to your goals.

Can I ask, are you young? Like 15-19? I see this happen a lot for people in that age range, although I've never quite figured out why (although I have some theories).
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Old 03-25-2009, 05:46 PM
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Agree with 666. From the history you gave in the first post you stated that you had bounced around quite a bit before starting your own guild...

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Old 03-25-2009, 07:05 PM
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Unhappy Breakin' up is hard to do
In this sort of situation I would most likely ask you to remove your altsÖ or else I would be removing them. Being in a guild is like being in a relationship; you need to break-up with one before you start dating the new chick. Yea, it's hard to do, but itís best to try and make a clean break. Decide what you want and then follow through.

Also as guido666 pointed out, your personality (competitive, reward driven) does not exactly fit well with a casual guild. Now that you have let it be known that phat lootz are your top priority you are most likely not going to find much sympathy in a casual guild. Iím sure these people are nice but there is most likely a guild out there that better fits your personality; go find it.

You mentioned the GM was being a bit of a hypocrite by allowing other alts in the guild. Surprise, life isnít fair! I donít know the specifics of every alt but the GM could have a million plausible reasons for having other peopleís alts in the guild and not yours. Perhaps that alt helped start the guild. Perhaps their main is in a top raiding guild on the server and gives raiding support to the raid leaders of your guild. Perhaps itís their wife. Understand that good guilds are all about the group, not the individual. If all you were contributing to the guild was a warm body for raids and now that raiding main is leavingÖ then whatís the point really?

WotLK content is really easy at the moment. From what Iíve read about 3.1Ö itís going to be a push over as well. You can pretty much pug everything. Iíd recommend taking some time and making sure this guild youíre considering joining is a good fit for you. If not, itís easy to be a free agent now days and pug raids whenever you feel like it. Good luck.
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guido666 View Post
I understand, but the jist of my post is the same...
- Realistically, you won't actually play in two guilds. So pick one and go.
- The reason you pissed them off is that they put a bunch of work into you, and are not getting any return out of you for it. They probably overreacted with their response, but their feelings aren't unjutsified.

Looking at your gamer psychology profile on here, it says that you're reward driven, and highly competitive. There are certainly exceptions, but usually people like you aren't the type that stay long in guilds whose method of operation is "We're underdogs, but if we all work hard together, we can accomplish a lot on our own". That's the attitude of many smaller guilds. Feel free to correct me if I'm off base, but I suspect that your motivation is "Ph4t L00tz", and you get little satisfaction from seeing the guild surmount minor milestones. And that's fine, the game has places for all types, but there may be better guilds for you, more suited to your goals.

Can I ask, are you young? Like 15-19? I see this happen a lot for people in that age range, although I've never quite figured out why (although I have some theories).
actually,
-i am 34,
-and that 'quiz', after looking at it, it said quiz 1 of 5 was done, meaning not all of the information is complete, also, i have no memory of even doing it. so, going off of bad information is often the worst choice of no information, good information, or bad information. (it also says i am more 'social' than 'reward driven.')
-this being my 3rd (or 4th depending on how you want to look at it, since the one before this broke up totally) guild in 4 years really is not that bad, considering that the first two a major group of people left. it has nothing to do with being a 'guild hopper.' unless, when one calls 20+ people leaving at once...
-as far as the current guild putting time and effort into me, well, that is not really true. I have contributed to the guild bank, have run some of the lower level toons through instances sometimes when they asked and other times without them even asking. I have supplied people with gear from loot drops and potions. whenever anyone has requested a damage dealer, my stock answer is 'sure.' I have even gone into a few places in the role of 'tank' if it was for guildees.
-Yes, I feel like i am being 'held back a bit.' That is very true, that also goes to content. Often in online games, content can only be accessed by being slightly competitive. I know there are many areas I never saw in the original version and the first expansion. 45 minute baron run? never was in one. never even knew what it was. General runs? what were those? never did one. As far as my current gear goes, it is all pretty darn good and i am happy where i am at. I am sure i could upgrade a few places, but, overall, eh, happy with what i have.
This is my current state of affairs:
right after server reset, do VOA 10/25 and OS 10/25 (well, mostly 25 now. those are both easy one boss instances.) before i got invited to those 25 man raids, i was bored out of my skull. the game was boring, at one point, i canceled my account. Then I started to get invited to those 25man raids, and it got fun. for about 4 hours on wednesdays, we would run through naxx 25. the group dynamic is usually very good, most of the time, it runs like a smooth machine. the more we have done it, the faster and smoother it goes. it feels like...progress.

And, yes, I think I have made up my mind, due to the gl taking it personally, it seems like that will be it, and time to move on. I feel that if I were to stay, there would still be a rift.

so, i guess, for a gl, the best thing to do when people let you know they are leaving is to not take it personally and try to find out why and remain on good terms. for all parties know, it could be a lack of communication somewhere.
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Old 03-25-2009, 11:41 PM
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Mr. Defensive FTW! Best of luck on your new adventures.
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:07 PM
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In City of Heroes, we have a structure called a 'coalition.' Several guilds can partner, use each other's bases, get a chat channel which works like the guild channel, etc. It's very common for players to have toons in more than one guild in a coalition, often one in each guild.

As far as I know, WoW doesn't have permanent coalitions, but your guild masters could still work together and create a close alliance between your guilds.

If the guildmasters don't want to do something like this, you're going to have to choose between guilds, rather than keeping a toon in each. Both leaders seem to want absolute loyalty, and a coalition is the only way you could show absolute loyalty without ditching one guild or the other.

On a more personal note, I would take offense at the suggestion that those raiders would stop teaming with me unless I join their guild. That smells of snobbery to me.
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